He found his bold vision podcast where we only talk to entrepreneurs with the bold vision of their business’s future. While listening to today’s episode, we want you to think about yourself, as it relates to our guests and their entrepreneurial journey. It is always something to learn. So if you’re interested in growing your business, getting a few golden nuggets, or simply learning more about entrepreneurship, this is the podcast for you. Show Notes of today’s episode will be available on bold vision podcast.com.
Brent Simpson 0:39
And we don’t have we really looked at how we’re structuring our businesses, many of us have it, and John and I are gonna talk to you today about really, do you own your business? Or does your employer own it, because there’s a difference. And we’re going to talk about how it could have accidentally happened because you just didn’t know some of the things we’re gonna talk about today. So if you want to share it, now’s the time. If you have questions about business structure for me about you know, positioning yourself in this environment, ask the questions, we’ll answer them the best we can. But you’re gonna be shocked to learn that some of you all who have businesses don’t actually own your business. So, John, when we talk about the fact that, you know, do you own your business? Or does your employer on your business, before we dive deep into it, a lot of people, they know who you are, you all have seen John before, he’s part of the bo vision team. But many of y’all don’t know everybody who’s on our roster of advisors who go out and see clients, John is one of them. Um, but also John is John The last time we talked, I did the wrong thing. And I said John’s biggest deal was like a billion dollars. And he corrected me in letting me know, the biggest deals you’ve ever done is what job?
Atty John Hoffman 1:53
Well, I have a 1.6 billion. So and I’m currently not general counsel, but a corporate counsel in chartered. So we’re at a billion dollar company in New Jersey, we have operations all around the world. And things are going very well, during this quarantine. I hope that all of you are doing well, it’s been a little bit crazy for us. Even though a lot of people fear downturn in the markets, or our business has only seen an upswell, which I know is the case for a number of the pharmaceutical companies that we work with. So I hope from the depth of my soul that all of you have been able to remain employed. Just try to stay positive, keep it up. But like Brent had mentioned before, I think a lot of the people that are tuning in here do have a side hustle, if they didn’t before they work their regular nine to five jobs. But being aware of what you’re doing going forward is of critical importance. I’m an attorney licensed in New Jersey, I am not here to give you legal advice in whatever state you’re in. Because I’m not licensed anywhere but New Jersey, I’m happy to consult with you to advise you about next steps about forms of business entities. And as Grant said, to let you know the steps that you need to be taking to ensure that you are protecting your own intellectual property so that you can use that. That goodwill, those proprietary inventions for yourself, and you’re not giving them kind of without being aware of it to your current employer. So we’ll talk about that going forward.
Brent Simpson 3:38
We’re gonna dive into that. So for a lot of you entrepreneurs, let’s see the numbers ticking up. So I know you want to hear what’s about to come down the pipeline. Some of you I haven’t seen John since the summit. But let me tell you, he’s already counseled a deal from some other people from the summit. We’re talking $11 million deals. And these these deals, right now, you have to figure out where you stand, like where your business is. So you all come to low vision, you’re like, Yeah, I want to work with John for some structuring of a company. He is not operating as an attorney, he’s operating as a business advisor. He is you need to understand the business of what you’re doing before you even start going out on the legal path. But so we talked about, we talked about what’s happening, it’s COVID-19 inside, so you tuned in, you kind of set it up perfectly. And now for those of you who are starting businesses, or for those of you who are now expanding your business, but you have a nine to five or you have a job that you haven’t really thought about, what am I legally required to do to disclose and or to not do during this period? We’ll talk about that. So John, how can somebody end up having their employer owned their job? When is something they create?
Atty John Hoffman 4:51
Absolutely, this is a critical area of what we refer to as IP law. Its intellectual and property. IP law So basically, that encapsulates everything from customer lists to your patents, your trademarks or copyrights, combinations of things that may be unique. A lot of times you, the company that employs you in terms of an eight to five, nine to five jobs will own that material. If you’re working on it during those hours, it’s very important to separate yourself from your typical nine to five type job. So that your employer, your full time employer can’t come back and claim to a court to an arbitration specialist, that anything you developed, maybe using their resources that you thought about while on the job, actually, it may belong to your your, your existing employer. Okay, there is a law students will tell you about the whole frolic and detour rule. It drives people crazy to try to determine where is that separation? How does it take place? If you come up with an idea, what do you have to do that you are technically far enough removed from your company that you don’t get into trouble? The advice that I generally give my friends and colleagues is make sure you stay off of their proprietary internet devices, don’t use their phones, don’t use your company email address, don’t send that stuff, maybe use your personal, your personal Id go through Yahoo, go through hot now go through Gmail, don’t do it through, you know, Johnson and johnson.com, or whoever your present employer is. Because if you do, then you are maybe not knowing that you’re doing so linking your idea back to the company. And that can give your employer a claim that you actually developed an idea on their behalf while working as their employee. If you each look back to when you were on boarded at your full time employers, a lot of you probably had to look through paperwork and sign something like nondisclosure agreement, and assignment and inventions agreement, something like that, which most people kind of glaze over. When they look at it, they just say Where should I sign? Okay, okay, I’ve been here for four hours already, just show me where to sign, here’s your pile of paper, okay, they’ll scan it, they’ll send it back to you. And there you go, goes in a file somewhere, never be seen or heard from again, when you do that, sometimes you’re giving away a lot of rights to your company. And you need to know what those legal terms are. So that if and when you need to know where that separation is, you can actually come to an understanding of that. HR is probably going to be your friend in this. Hopefully that all of you that work with a nine to five type employer has have an HR department where you can put in a Dropbox question, you can ask to approach them confidentially. And say, Oh, I have an idea for something that’s completely unrelated to this business that I’m looking to work on. I’m not going to do it on your devices, not going to use your computer, not going to use your phone, your scanner, anything not using any time. I’m not going to poach away your employees not going to poach away any clients. I’m doing this on my own, what steps do I need to take?
Brent Simpson 8:38
And just be awareness? Yeah, who’s jumping on that. And so for some of you all who and I’ve heard this time and time again, I don’t want to tell anybody until it started because somebody might steal my idea. A lot of times when you have that fear is unwarranted, because generally you had it came to you because it’s supposed to be with you. And if you can do it better than anybody else. Or if you can do it uniquely, the way you do it, then it’s yours. Don’t think that fear sometimes can keep us from even starting in the company. We’ve had people we’ve consulted, and we’ve seen We’ve seen some sort of experience in life, that person has the best idea in the world, it stays in the drawer, best idea in the world, but it never comes to be built. Because they’re always like scared to take it. But in this case, we’re telling you all if especially for those of you who have not filed and this is your side hustle. This is a side hustle conversation. So if you don’t talk to your HR, because there is no HR less, I mean, some businesses, it’s just you in the boss, or you’re the second in command, you’re the third man. Take it to them. Don’t Don’t try to create a secret because now not only will they create hostility between you two, but you also violated process possibly, possibly violate the terms of the agreement when you’re hired.
Atty John Hoffman 9:52
Exactly. And obviously there are lots of different ways and lots of things to keep in mind when you approach your employer. You know, obviously let’s Notice there are your there a number one and all of your efforts and all of your thoughts are to them that are focused on them primarily, this is just something that you know, maybe your crazy uncle and cousin was talking about, you want to make sure that you have that that separate line drawn in the sand so that nobody gets in trouble. And there are no bad feelings down the line. That said, I have counseled people in the past, where they end up teaming up with a former employer, they share customer lists, they actually really dovetail in nicely, the products or services are complementary. And they can work well together. That said, when there is a bad breakup between employers and employees, you’re kind of losing that you’re opening the door to losing that relationship. So be aware of those relationships, you want to maintain them, and do the best that you can to make sure that you’re not burning any bridges. But again, you want to maintain your intellectual property, which can be really as simple as writing your idea down, maybe mailing it to yourself, putting on a piece of paper mailing to yourself, that is, in effect a copyright right there, which is That’s it.
Brent Simpson 11:21
That’s the thing is copyright.
Atty John Hoffman 11:22
Right? Yeah, that’s the poor man’s copyright. That said, if anybody wants to come and see, you can say I formalize this, I dropped it in the mail. It’s a real thing. It’s postmarket stamp, you’ve got evidence. There it is. So if it goes to a court, and they say, When was this in use? Here’s my stamp letter. Here it is. Yeah, there are little tricks like that. Again, this isn’t coming from me, I do you have some background COVID IP specialists will be able to tell you what steps you need to take, and where your money can best be used. Obviously, there’s a lot to talk about that when you’re starting up your business. So, you know, make making sure your intellectual property is protected is really your a number one goal in this game. Okay, you know,
Brent Simpson 12:15
there’s a lot of people right now tuning in, and thank you for sharing that I see people sharing. Um, now, I always say, this is our time for your commercial, everybody watching, we’re not getting out to network like we normally do. And I tell you all, Tom, Tom, again, every Thursday at 230, this is an opportunity for you all to network. So if you can drop in to the comment section, what your company is what your company does, there may be somebody watching this because they were attracted to the content. And the content relates directly to a subject or a specialty field that you’re in, like I saw, um, Diana, you know, she’s the HR specialist. And you know, Diana, George has already listed the fact that she’s an HR, because we’re talking about a subject that may require you to go talk to HR, no doubt, you know, attorney have everything listed is on. And when you go to find your business, you may want to legally structure it in a particular way. So you might want to look to the long term with it. And I’m saying Jesse on here, she’s loving information. Bianco does business all over the place. This is really good. And I see Brian and Brian has black speakers network. And many of those individuals inside of the Black Speakers network may have started their own company as a side hustle, and never followed the steps we’re about to lay out. And so granted, we hope this never it never comes to your employees that No, I own this. But I’m telling you, I’ve I’ve seen it happen. And I know nobody’s having this conversation right now. Me and John and I were talking last night, like, let’s have this conversation with the world to hear. Absolutely.
Atty John Hoffman 13:42
And HR can really be your best friend. So you know, you can you can tootle around on your websites, if you have that. Maybe ask questions to to somebody else. If there’s a secretary of HR, if you’re friends with the HR person, and just approach them and say, you know, is everything you know, confidential? Can I have a confidential conversation with you? Or should I go talk to someone else, you know, obviously, you don’t want to step on toes. And it’s a somewhat delicate balance. But when you’re equipped with that information, you can make a more informed decision. HR can really be your best friend in a lot of these instances.
Brent Simpson 14:19
And don’t get overly relaxed when you’re having this conversation with HR or you’re you’re the owner of the company. And I say, let’s say overly relaxing, see what I mean? Sometimes people just start to say what they think they’re going to do. They have no plans, nothing in place, no thought behind what the business will look like. But they start having these conversations as if it’s happening. And then you go to HR, and you’re having this deep conversation like knows what I’m thinking about doing this sort of this I want to carry the business and I don’t want you go through all the process that we spoke about earlier. Right? And then it never happens. It never comes to fruition because it was just an idea. And then you come to HR again. two months, three months, four months. And you’re like, you know what I’m thinking about this other company I want to have, can we have the conversation again? Because the reality is, we’re all people, and they will start judging you, your job will start thinking you’re flaky. And that is, we’re going to tell you the truth, that bold vision, and that’s the truth, when you go and have this conversation is because you already have traction, you already know that you’re going to do it. And you don’t want to run the risk of there being conflict of something, you know, you’re going to do. Exactly. This is not the wishful thinking, well, like, you know, I’ve always wanted to have a travel agency, I work for a travel company, some of the talks, I’m about conflict of interest that doesn’t exist. And so, you know, one of the things my background being in finance was when we would do applications, especially for life insurance, one of the questions on there, do you plan on traveling to an average place, and people will start saying all these answers like, yeah, oh, do you have tickets? They’re like, No, but I’m trying to go one day. And I’m telling them like, Do you realize you’re filling out a life insurance application? So if you say you’re going, then they’re going to adjust your life insurance accordingly. And it’s going to cost more? Yep. So you’re talking about a wish. So just understand whether that where that line is between, I want to have the conversation because really happening, and I want to have the conversation just because I want to feel like I’m doing something. Yep, you know, come to a bold vision, go to a Diane to talk to us, you know, schedule time with to sit down with John. And to really go through that and see what makes sense, John and I are going to work on a deal, probably in the next couple of weeks, with some eye surgeons, and we’re talking to them about something they know they’re going to do, and they’re talking to us first. So we can vet the idea. After we vet the idea. And John, I’m sure you know, it’s gonna come up. Have you all talked about your current employer, your eye surgeons, and so of course, what we’re doing may may cross those lines, but other than them hiring us beforehand? Will they have had the conversation? Or will they have built what can be a significant business, and then for one of their the doctors to come in and say, but it’s actually ours? Yep. It’s very important to know. And in this time, I’m telling you may not think so. But you don’t know the economic condition of your boss. And so maybe they’re, they’re pulling airs, like, we just need to find money. And all of a sudden, they realize you’re pretty successful. You just have a brand new partner that you didn’t anticipate or person that owns your company. And so John, if somebody does do this, or they haven’t done it, and you know, a boss comes to them, and says, you know, what, you used our laptop to build this entire company. You use our cell phone to make all the calls and hear the records? Yeah. Is our company like, reports does a person have?
Atty John Hoffman 17:48
Well, there are a couple. Hopefully, you’ve set up something that can limit your liability. This is why I always advise entrepreneurs to at least investigate, obtaining insurance. And then we want to see how your entrepreneurial venture is established and founded, what form of business entity it is, whether it’s a sole proprietorship, hopefully, it’s something than just your name. I say that just because if you’re running a business, only through you, you stand to potentially literally lose your house, literally lose your car. In case anything turns bad in business, okay. The beauty of American business, if you want to call it that is there are a number of legal formalities that have been established that enable entrepreneurs to protect themselves, their investors and their employees from things going badly in the future. So you only are you’re capping the amount of financial potential financial risk that you’re willing to take, which can be a great, huge thing, and immeasurable thing, obviously can cost different amounts of money, whether you’re going to be a sole proprietorship, partnership, a C Corp, an S corp, and LLC. There are countless forms of business entities, most available in most states in this country. And we can certainly talk about those go through the pros and cons. We also need to consider you know what your endgame is, what the the ideal exit strategy might be, and who your founders are, so that when you’re you’re establishing, basically your business entity, you know how to divide the ownership of the entity at the beginning. Because I can’t count the number of times I have seen good companies fall apart because the founders of the company haven’t had the difficult conversations. From the outset, and maybe someone’s doing 80% of the work, but the company is split 5050? Well, we can say that doesn’t seem fair. But if it’s a two share company, each, each partner holds one share, it’s 5050, if it goes to court, then you’re going to have very, very bruised, battered feelings when one person standing up against the other saying, but I did this, I did this, and I did this. You don’t want that to happen. This is one of the reasons why I enjoy what I do as a corporate attorney. I think there is some, some thought behind the whole process. And it’s really forcing people to think about kind of the end game, it’s really preparing you for the worst situation. And a lot of people will say, Well, I don’t want to think about what could possibly bad go bad badly for me. But that’s important. That’s, that’s my job. It’s generally the job of advisors of attorneys of whoever, maybe you don’t want to think about it. But to be responsible, you need to, you need to grab that by the horns and really tackle. That’s, that’s what we’re doing here for you.
Brent Simpson 21:10
And sometimes you want to bring in arbitration for that, right, you know, not want to feel like the person on board up but an uncomfortable conversation. And you’re now looking at it thinking, I don’t know where I am in business, like, how do you determine where you are, you know, you, John, earlier you mentioned, you know, look at where you are in the business lifecycle, basically, and determine, well, for those of y’all who don’t know who you are, I will drop a link in John and I actually wrote out a business lifecycle. And we actually tweaked it a little bit, we had eight stages instead of seven. And that link is going to be listed here. And the cool thing is, like I did the first round of writing, and John did to clean up. And when John did to clean up, I thought it was really a cool thing. He went through and highlighted certain keywords. And if you go through and just read the keywords, it actually spells out the life cycle. It gives an overall synopsis of the life cycle just by reading the keywords. And the really cool thing and you should check it out. But aside from that, that conversation, my background, being corporate registered investment advisor, united to look at Buy Sell agreements and cross purchase plans to see like, what was the exit strategy if somebody gets hit by a bus? And we talked about what happens if a business partner dies? Yeah, that’s one thing. What happens if there’s still I’ve been having expenses? Yeah, has the company accounted for that? And really have it. And so you know, you start to think about these things. And on top of that, you’re still driving your company car, to meet with clients for your personal business. And I’ve seen this happen. This was this is tragic, but it happened. A person was driving a company car to do personal business, and they got an accident. The company went after everything. Everything. And I honestly think in that situation, the owner was just felt betrayed that they even were doing that. And they didn’t know. And they went out. They went after them in spite. Yeah, totally overwhelmed. Sure. They didn’t need the money. But they they got the money. Yeah. So you know, when when we wrote the life cycle, even with that, we started to talk about and anybody that knows me personally knows I love just breaking things down and read them in a better way. And John has his knack for actually going in. And looking at the details that people just miss. Like you’re honestly like, like the content detective.
Atty John Hoffman 23:35
Sorry. No, I don’t apologize for it. It’s just It’s my it’s my makeup. And a lot of the stuff people say it’s not important. Maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s not. I have a different view of the world than most people. Yeah, I don’t think I’m dwelling in the negative all the time. But I like to be happily surprised, rather than, you know, miserably surprised.
Brent Simpson 24:01
I once had a joke. I saw a story about you at work if I don’t say the names of color time. Yeah. Okay. So John was with the for the company. And they were doing legal work. And basically, their files were horribly mis organized. And they’re really small details in each of the contracts that were costing them that could possibly cost them money in the future. John made suggestion that they go back and look at how their contracts were, because certain words could lead them down a path. They didn’t want to go down. They thought, Oh, no big deal. John went through a series of these contracts. And the thing about reading a contract for a multimillion dollar firm, right,
Atty John Hoffman 24:43
as a 13, build billion dollars, or 1300 or 1300 contracts,
Brent Simpson 24:49
and he went through them and made a spreadsheet. Is this correct with the keywords that could cause them their contracts to be read the wrong way and put them in harm’s way It actually created a a monetize, I’ll give it a quantifiable number
Atty John Hoffman 25:04
of what they were, there were 35,000, sortable data points. And I showed the company’s board of directors how they could maybe not necessarily in the best light. But there would be a way to switch billing methods. That could be totally without anyone raising an eyebrow, that would make them over $100 million a year $100 million dollars a year. And they did no problem. Because you no one blinked, you know what to do
Brent Simpson 25:44
that, like, who would spend the time to go through 35,000 data points, right. And so you know, and even today, I’m gonna do a plug, when, you know, we talk about low vision, people all you guys always see me and you only see like me on the front end. And John and I have been trying to figure out how to really get him into the fold deeper and more. But he’s been there since the beginning. And you got seen one website, you hear us talk. But this is the level of engagement that you really need when you’re building a serious company. Because contracts, really most of us just do zoom or Legal Zoom, or we’re trying to pull these things off of the net, and they’re poorly written, right, we don’t think about it until something comes up. And we’re like, oh, my gosh, I didn’t even realize I had too much exposure. But what really happens is when you start to align how you’re legally enabled, just legally, because again, we’re talking about just general business, I’m just IQ to put in place and to think about, but most small businesses just start out in necessity, or by accident. So you’re about to place a passion that was immediate and hard driven, because we were let go from a job or, you know, we decided to leave because we just couldn’t take it anymore. And that’s, that’s gonna bring us full circle back to COVID-19. Right. COVID-19 right now is a place where so many people are looking at that side, hustle like, this is far more attractive than it’s ever been. I realized I need multiple sources of income. Maybe other people think, Oh, my business isn’t structured properly. I never thought about this. And what you’re doing to correct it is very important right now. In I mean, when I say when, when a roomful of surgeons calls me because they want to help, you know, structuring the deal, that it means they’re talking about bringing us on for possibly life, but doing at least getting them started in the right direction. Is not the first time that you know, I’ve gotten a call and provisions gotten a call when somebody says they have to deal with this is, is international deal with a province of another country. And they need to figure it out. And they call John and I, and we put together that team and we’re like, Yo, this is what you do. They’re never going to sleep at night thinking, Okay, this potential $550,000 That I might make from this deal is, is a lot better. So, you know, when when you’re moving to Thomas phase, this is what we say. Make sure you’re doing it the right way. Don’t give your company away by accident.
Atty John Hoffman 28:13
Exactly. Is hijacked your idea. Have a company, just be aware. Talk to the right people surround yourself with the right people don’t settle. You know, and when you start amassing contracts and data points, use that. Use those things that helps you become a better negotiator, a better business person. These are all things that can be used, so don’t take them for granted. Yeah.
Brent Simpson 28:38
And you know, one of the when people went to when we did the BVE summit in 2019, you know, I got a phone call saying, Well, why is the ticket price 30 $20 A person because we have people like this there. And now we’re doing business that deal for 11 mil we’re talking about all people who are at the summit. And you know, we’re talking about now, you know, even though this attorney Beverly Wednesday, she’s my top 40 attorneys in the nation in 2018. She they’re in this in this thread, John, you can’t see it. But she said she wants to reconnect with you. You guys need to talk or reach out though. I think she’s actually she’s about to do a seminar for the National Bar Association like either today or Monday. Nice, nice. But you know, in a space who you surround yourself with is very important. You know, I’m pretty casually so people Navy, because I don’t flex people think they don’t they don’t know the full scope of really what we’re capable of, but really heavy hitters on our team. And if you’re thinking about doing a business right now, whether you call us or not, it doesn’t matter. We’ve never been at that group to say only we can do it. We’re just saying make sure you do it with someone who understands not only business but the tax side of it, the accounting side of it, the legal side of it, the structuring side of the marketing, all these things drastically important when you start? Yep. John, anything you need to know in closing? Um,
Atty John Hoffman 0:03
I don’t think so just a little bit more background. Like you said, I am a corporate attorney. I’ve been practicing for about 20 years now. I taught entrepreneurial law at Drexel in Philadelphia. I’m actually from Maryland. So I know I get a lot of shout outs to the the old base state nor it’s not the base it that’s Massachusetts old base state. Right. I love my old day. So yeah, look forward to speaking with all
Brent Simpson 0:33
yeah, that’s that Baltimore live when we start talking about obey. That’s right. What I want to do right now, for anybody who just wants to read John’s profile, um, went to the bow vision page, and I’m actually pulling his own write up, is, is probably gonna be tweaked at this point. But it gives you an idea of who he is and what he’s capable of. But again, I’m gonna go back to this when you’re talking about building a company, and you’re trying to try to hold it so tight, that you’re not telling anybody what it is, or you’re not asking the right people the right questions, because you think what whomever it is, you speak to my still it, that’s the wrong thought. And that’s actually exposing the fact that you’re not confident in what you’re doing. And I’m not calling you out. And so if you’re really confident what you do your thought processes, nobody can do it as well as me, because I’m gonna tell you, there are a million business advisors in the world a million. I think Bo vision has some of the best. And when people finally meet with us, we can show you the testimonials from from them. They didn’t even possibly. You mean what, show me somebody went through 35,000 data points for a multi million dollar firm and prove that they were right, as a new hire. Because what that company long and you did that, right?
Atty John Hoffman 1:50
I was with no, I, I start I was with him for a total of 14 months.
Brent Simpson 1:58
That’s, that’s flexes, like imagine coming in and say no, actually, whatever legal counsel you have before, you’re not saying they’re wrong, you’re just saying some things that can save you all a headache in the future. And here it is quantitative, and qualitatively drawn out. That’s it. It’s a beautiful time, guys. I hope you take some, you know, some extra minutes when you go to check those links to, you know, set up an appointment, if you want to talk to John, you really want to sit down and have a look at your business. We’re reading and now we’re figuring it out. Now, we’re probably gonna do like some webinars or something systematic, where people can come in and do like a q&a time to get the questions answered, again, not from a legal standpoint, but from a legal base. And so it’s going to be business advisory consultation, and you can take back and accelerate the time you need to spend with your attorney. Or at least you’re starting more intelligently than you would if you were in your room, in your basement in your living room at your kitchen table. Doing it on your own.
Atty John Hoffman 2:59
Exactly. That’s the key. Yeah, don’t go too long. Yeah,
Brent Simpson 3:03
you don’t have to mean companies like us are out there. And if it’s not us, just find a reputable company. They will do you, um, do a service for you to the right service.
Atty John Hoffman 3:12
Exactly. So you Well, well, stay healthy.
Brent Simpson 3:17
Alright, um, Go fish.
I hope you got as much out of today’s episode as I did. You will find the social media links for today’s guests and the show notes on bow vision podcast.com. There are also resources on the site to help you accelerate your success. Please be sure to share this episode with friends and subscribe to our podcast. We’re growing fast. Our goal over the next 12 months is to reach 5000 entrepreneurs. To do that we need your help. So again, share subscribe and comment. Remember, be bold and always have a vision for your best tomorrow.
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